Full Year 2022 Cromwell Property Group Earnings Call Aug 25, 2022 (Thomson StreetEvents) -- Edited Transcript of Cromwell Property Group earnings conference call or presentation Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 11:00:00pm GMT TEXT version of Transcript ================================================================================ Corporate Participants ================================================================================ * Brett Hinton Cromwell Property Group - Head of Funds Management * Gary Hilton Weiss Cromwell Property Group - Non-Independent & Non-Executive Chair of the Board * Jonathan P. Callaghan Cromwell Property Group - CEO, MD & Director * Michael Damian Wilde Cromwell Property Group - CFO * Michelle Dance;Cromwell Property Group,Fund Manager ================================================================================ Conference Call Participants ================================================================================ * Alexander Prineas Morningstar Inc., Research Division - Associate Director of Manager Research * Annabelle Atkins JPMorgan Chase & Co, Research Division - Analyst * Fiona Buchanan Morgans Financial Limited, Research Division - Co-Head of Research & Senior Analyst ================================================================================ Presentation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Operator [1] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for standing by, and welcome to the Cromwell Property Group Fiscal Year 2022 Results Call. (Operator Instructions) I would now like to turn the call over to Mr. Gary Weiss, Chairman. Please go ahead. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gary Hilton Weiss, Cromwell Property Group - Non-Independent & Non-Executive Chair of the Board [2] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you. I begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the lands on which we meet today and pay my respects to their elders past, present, and emerging. Good morning, everyone, and welcome to Cromwell Property Group's Financial Results presentation for the year ended 30th June 2022. Cromwell delivered stable returns through the financial year as markets globally continue to be impacted by COVID-19, the war in Ukraine, growing inflation, and increasing interest rates, leading to increased volatility and uncertainty across many sectors and countries. Cromwell has again proven to be a strong and resilient group with our full-year results, reflecting ongoing positive momentum and positioning during a period of change and a less than optimal economic conditions. Under the leadership of new Managing Director and Chief Executive, Jonathan Callaghan, and a strong and capable management team, Cromwell has made progress on the disposal program of noncore assets in Australia. And in Europe, the business is well positioned for the next phase of change, continuing our pivot to seek to become a capital-light global fund manager. While market conditions have delayed the listing of the REIT vehicle of core and core plus Australian assets, this remains a key objective for the group in FY 2023. The Board has confidence in the executive team to execute the strategy with support from both the wider Australian and European teams as timing proves right to do so. I'll now hand over to Jonathan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan P. Callaghan, Cromwell Property Group - CEO, MD & Director [3] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you, Gary. Good morning to everyone who has dialed in, and thank you all for being here. As we close out the 2022 financial year, we move out of periods of lockdowns and other COVID-19 impacts into an environment of ongoing change, not just changes to Cromwell's strategic direction, but also the environment we're working in, considering how tenants will use their office space and inflationary environment and some uncertainty around Russia's ongoing war in Ukraine and the impact it may have on Europe and the market more widely. Through a tricky operating environment and a period of change, I extend my appreciation to Cromwell staff globally. And thank you all for the hard work we've been put in to the last financial year, driving asset performance, stabilizing our balance sheet, and supporting various initiatives that will set our business up for future success. We're pleased to share Cromwell Property Group's financial year results with you all today, which reflects substantial progress on our journey to change to a capital-light fund manager, while remaining strategic in timing and execution of key initiatives. Slide 4 provides a brief overview of the group, showing our global assets under management of $12 billion, steady and marginally up on last financial year. We are proud of a diverse team of more than 400 people in 14 different countries, which provides us local intel and experience in rolling out our global strategy. At a headline, we manage more than 200 properties globally with more than 2,300 tenant customers across a number of strategies, which will cover off as we work through the presentation. A number of initiatives have progressed to support the renewed vision. Our outlined on Slide 7, which includes we have progressed our sale of non-core assets in Australia, applying the proceeds to debt reduction, bringing gearing down to 39.6% within our target gearing range. We continue to focus on the growth of our European platform and are happy to report that new mandates have been committed with target gross asset values of EUR 800 million with approximately 1/4 of that already invested. We have a renewed focus on the Australian Funds Management business with BPF, our flagship unlisted retail fund acquiring 2 assets and positive net inflows of $90.5 million. And we've updated our operating structure in Australia and Europe, including key hires who each bring a huge amount of experience to our business, including Michelle Dance, as Fund Manager of the Australian portfolio. Peta Tilse, Head of Retail Funds Management in Australia; and Andrew Crichton, Head of Investment Management in Europe. We have streamlined the business globally across operating structures for alignment and scalability. We have introduced the program of key initiatives, which aim to retain and support our valuable people and attracting talent to the business. Turning to Slide 8. In terms of the group's results, operating profit increased 5% compared to the prior corresponding period of 30 June 2021, largely driven by higher funds management profit and improved performance of the CPRF portfolio, which was more impacted in the prior year by COVID-19. Cromwell paid distributions of $0.065 per unit during the financial year, approximately 98% of our adjusted funds from operations. This is a slight reduction on the prior period ended 30 June 2021. Michael will cover off the details more closely in a few minutes. Operationally, our Australian portfolio value was stable, marginally up in value with strong underlying metrics supporting ongoing stability and growth. Our ESG program summarized on Slide 10, is going through a review currently, setting new baselines and targets as we place more emphasis on this part of our refresh strategy. We are pleased that we have maintained a high level of performance for key governance pillar for our key governance pillar, including compliance, training, and disclosure principles, and increased integration between risk management, ESG performance, and safety governance, including reporting and oversight. On Slide 11, we outlined how we are focused on our people, who we believe are the backbone of our business and will provide the support to execute our new vision. We are committed to providing an equal and inclusive workplace. We are pleased that we have achieved global diversification objective of 40/40/20 at the Cromwell Board, team leader, and emerging leader levels with further work ongoing to achieve this at all employee levels. We have updated a number of policies to support initiatives to retain and attract talent, such as global agile working policies and flexible leave initiatives. A key contribution I'd like to call out is our Poland teams assistance in helping Ukrainians who left their homes and flat to Poland after Russia attack. Our team on the ground assisted emergency efforts by providing emergency accommodation and provisions. The wider European and Australian employees donated their own money to assist. We're very proud to have committed -- we're very proud to have a committed and compassionate team who see how serious the impact an event like this is and can pitch in to help in their own ways. I would now like to hand over to CFO, Michael Wilde, who will take us through the financial results in more detail as well as capital management. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Damian Wilde, Cromwell Property Group - CFO [4] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks, Jonathan. Starting on Slide 13. Statutory profit of $263.2 million, equivalent to $10.05 per security with a 15% reduction on the prior year and was largely due to lower share of statutory profit from equity accounted investments, lower fair value gains from the investment portfolio, and higher tax expense. Operating profit was $201 million, equivalent to $7.68 per security, which was a 5% increase on the prior corresponding period, largely driven by higher funds management profit and improved performance of the CPRF portfolio, which was impacted in the prior year by continued COVID-19-related lockdowns. This was all partially offset by higher insurance costs. Distribution of $6.5 per security represented a payout ratio of 85% against operating profit. Looking at each segment in turn on Slide 14. Funded asset management activities resulted in a profit of $49.7 million, up $5.1 million on the prior year. This was driven by development income in Europe, while we continue to see growth in Cromwell's European REIT, our Singapore listed product, which had further acquisitions during the year. Co-investments saw an increase in operating profit of $15.4 million, a 33% increase in the prior year. While our share of operating profit of CRE was slightly down on the prior year, the biggest driver of the increase in operating profit was the performance of the Polish portfolio, which, as already stated, saw minimal COVID-19 related lockdowns in the current year. Cromwell investment portfolio operating profit was $144.5 million, flat on the prior year of $144.1 million. Rent collection within the portfolio was largely unimpacted from COVID-19 during the financial year with some strong leasing results. Property valuations increased by $79.1 million for the financial year. Non-segment specific corporate costs, which pertain to group level functions, increased in total for the financial year by 21.7%. Most of this attributed to increased insurance costs, which have been renewed for FY '23 with premiums resetting to approximately 50% of FY '22 levels. Turning to capital management. Gearing for the group sits at 39.6%, which is now inside our target range of 30% to 40% for the first time in some years. We will continue to apply sale proceeds to debt reduction through ongoing sale of non-core assets. The average interest rate across the group, inclusive of the impacts of hedging, remained relatively low at 2.4%, with weighted average debt maturity sitting at just under 3 years. During the latter part of the financial year, we refinanced $325 million of senior secured facilities at an average term of 4 years. Cromwell also issued a tender notice for the EUR 230 million convertible bond with initial take-up of 41.3%. A further 57.6% was repurchased on the 1st of August 2022, leaving 1.1%, which will be redeemed on the 9th of September 2022, by an optional redemption by the issuer. Closing out this bond position goes to the ongoing simplification of our business and balance sheet. We continue to make substantial liquidity and covenant headroom with a strong interest coverage ratio of 6.3x. Subsequent to the repayment of the bond, pro forma liquidity will be $420.5 million. At the end of the financial year, 51.6% of borrowings are either fixed or hedged through interest rate, swaps, and caps. I will now pass to Michelle Dance, newly appointed as Fund Manager of the Australian portfolio of assets to go through a review of their performance for the financial year. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michelle Dance;Cromwell Property Group,Fund Manager, [5] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks, Michael. Good morning to everyone on the call today. I'm going to start with a review of Slide 18. I'm pleased to report that our Australian investment portfolio performed well over the financial year, with valuation gains of 2.15% on a like-for-like. As Jonathan mentioned, we completed the sale of 4 assets over the year, being 200 Marriott in Brisbane, Regent Cinema in Albury, Village Cinema in Julong, and the TGA Complex in the ATT. These assets were sold at a premium to the December 2021 book value and sets our Australian portfolio in a stronger position for the next phase of growth for Cromwell with stable growth at stable WALE of 5.9 years and occupancy up from 94.7% in June to 95.6%. During the financial year, our team executed 41 leases over 52,000 square meters. Pleasingly, noticing a number of longer leases being written more recently, reflective of tenants having a clearer picture of their office needs for their staff. We currently have 4 leases over 6,500 square meters under heads of agreement with a WALE of 6.8 years which is indicative of the improving operating certainty in the tenant market. As Michael mentioned and shown in the chart on Slide 19, our investment portfolio is substantially weighted to government tenants who make up 49% of gross income. As I mentioned, with the portfolio with a weighted average lease of 5.9 years and no more than 10% of the portfolio is expiring each year until 2026. Encouragingly, tenant inquiry is improving, and we are well progressed in dealing with the current vacancy in the portfolio. We expect occupancy to remain strong across our Australian portfolio given our long WALE, strong tenant credit quality, and tenants increasingly committing to longer-term leases despite recent low physical occupancy across the market. We are confident that our strong tenant engagement and clear understanding of (inaudible). In the near term, we will continue to focus on active asset management and supporting our tenants to adapt to the hybrid work environment with an emphasis on well-being, improved gathering places, and collaboration areas, building amenity, and technology that supports hybrid working and distributed workforce. With the bulk of the workforce wanting to remain in a hybrid working environment and labor shortages across the globe, providing attractive places for staff to come together provide employers with an important tool in attracting talent. If most staffs are only coming to the office on a part-time basis, the office needs to adapt in how it is used. A case study of relief on Slide 20 outlines the project we're really proud of at Kent Street, Sydney, and that demonstrates the ability of the Cromwell asset management team to anticipate and understand these trends. This is a difficult pace, unleash the 2 years due to an old fit-out and tricky floor plate with low levels of natural light. During Sydney's lockdowns, our team works on assessing and understanding the new post-COVID work environment requirement and undertook a full floor speculative fit-out of the space. We created additional NLA and delivered a beautiful well-positioned floor, which resulted in achieving a heads of agreement only 4 weeks from practical completion of the (inaudible). This upgrade included (inaudible) and breakout areas, open collaborative space, quiet pots, modern tech inclusions, and meeting rooms within an improved layout. In addition, a lobby upgrade was completed, opening up space for better use, new modern furniture to encourage informal meetings, and the inclusion of an artwork co-created by Bunching Artist Brad Turner and Constantia and artists from the local Gadigal land on which the building stands. Now, here is Brett Hinton, Head of Funds Management to talk about funds and asset management and co-investments. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brett Hinton, Cromwell Property Group - Head of Funds Management [6] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks, Michelle, and welcome. Good morning, everybody. As we move to Slide 22, we can see that across the global platform, assets under management remained stable, up almost 1% over the financial year to 30 June 2022. Third-party assets under management totaled $7.8 billion, unchanged from the prior financial year. On Slide 23, you can see that the European AUM of EUR 3.37 billion was stable to the prior corresponding period on the Australian dollar equivalent of $5.1 billion. During FY '22, we continued to grow the Cromwell European REIT, including the commencement of 2 key development projects in the U.K. and Netherlands. The management team in Singapore continued to deliver for investors by driving positive outcomes on net property income and distributable income both up 4.7% and 5.9% year-on-year. The team in Europe also secured 4 new mandate commitments for a gross asset value of EUR 800 million, of which approximately EUR 121 million has been executed with another 4 assets valued at $200 million approaching settlement. Currently, assets under management on our local Australian platform totaled $2.7 billion, unchanged from 30 June 2021. The retail funds management platform recognized net equity inflows of $60 million, showing ongoing strong demand for well-positioned unlisted real estate products. We have seen outflows in the Phoenix property securities fund but expect with current volatile markets, investors will be attracted to the highly rated team changing this trend around. New Head of Retail Funds Management, Peta Tilse, joined during the financial year. She brings a wealth of experience in the investment and adviser space to drive our strong brand and grow our retail funds management business. One of the products in that team, the Cromwell Direct Property Fund, shown on Slide 25, had net equity inflows of approximately $90 million over the financial year and reported gross assets of $780 million, up from the $543 million from the prior corresponding period. Distributions remained strong, yielding 5.5% paid monthly and based on the rate of $7.25 per unit per annum at a unit price of $1.32, which was up from the $1.25 of the prior corresponding period. The Cromwell Riverpark Trust, which is a fully subscribed fund, commenced the sale process on its sole asset and eject outs during the financial year. With the decline in market conditions, this did not settle with the counterparty that was in exclusive due diligence. We will continue with this process focused on maximizing the pricing outcomes to the investors. Cromwell Property Trust 12, which is also fully subscribed, has a single remaining asset in Dandenong with the major tenant of the Australian tax office. This asset continues to perform extremely well, reflected by 16% valuation uplift in October 21 now valued at $124 million and up from the $107 million in the financial year 2021. The fund has a distribution yield of 4.8% based on a distribution rate of $5.75 per unit per annum and a unit price of $1.19 as of June 2022. As we've increased our engagement with both institutional and retail investors, our model of firsthand global insights with boots on the ground in Australia, Asia, and Europe has positively resonated and gives us confirmation we are on the right path to success and growth. Cromwell remains committed to a co-investment model, aligning our management to the interest of our capital partners. I will now walk through the performance of our co-investments starting on Slide 29. During the financial year, Cromwell invested almost $20 million in the Cromwell Direct Property Fund, which performed well over the financial year, providing a 4% total return and a distribution of Cromwell of $810,000. The Cromwell 28% equity accounted share in the Cromwell European REIT, its statutory profit for the financial year was $41 million, down on June 21 profit of $43.3 million. The repaid distribution of Cromwell of $34.5 million for the financial year. As at 30 June 2022, our equity stake is held at $600 million. Having recently reported our half-yearly results, strong portfolio occupancy of 95.4% led by light industrial and logistics at 97.1%, all with positive rent reversions of 2.9% underpins the distributable income into the future. Turning to Slide 30. The portfolio of retail assets in Poland that formed the Cromwell Polish Retail Fund was valued at $720 million, inclusive of our 50% interest in the $165 million earned assets from Ursynow on an equity-accounted basis. The valuation of this portfolio is down from last financial year, reflecting the geopolitical tension in the region. These centers are anchored by a large French grocery giant, Auchan, representing 30% of gross portfolio rent, providing stable income. Total rental invoice collection for the period has returned to pre-COVID levels with improved footfall and in-store turnover. Cromwell has identified these assets as non-corporate investors, particularly in light of the risks associated with ongoing regional political unrest. We expect that taking individual assets to market will support the repatriation of capital more quickly than selling the portfolio as a whole. The Cromwell Italy Urban Logistics Fund is a portfolio of Italian logistics assets that remained resilient, valued at $91.1 million, marginally up from the $90.7 million at FY '21. These 7 logistics assets are tenanted solely by DHL maintained strong operations through COVID-19 on the back of increased demand for logistics services globally. Cromwell has identified these assets is also being non-core, giving a low returning yield, not meeting the return profile required for investors for any new pan-European fund. These assets are mature with limited opportunity to add further value through active asset management, which is Cromwell’s core strength. We may revisit a pan-European logistics fund if market conditions available in the future. I'll now hand back to Jonathan for the strategy and outlook. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan P. Callaghan, Cromwell Property Group - CEO, MD & Director [7] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you, Brett. Moving on to the group's strategy and outlook on Slide 31. Whilst market conditions did not allow us to execute on our strategy to launch a separately listed Australian REIT using key assets from our balance sheet, this still remains a strategic focus for the group through financial year 2023. We have spent some time improving our reporting and communications to increase transparency and to create trust and alignment with our security holders, investors, tenants, customers, and our people. We have simplified the balance sheet through strategic non-core asset sales, closing out the convertible bond, and streamlining our operating platform. We believe we're well placed to take the next step in Cromwell's growth strategy when the timing is right and market conditions will support this separation of operating platform and assets. In Australia, we will build on our history in the Australian office -- in the office sector, putting our value-add skills to work in delivering new products to our investor base with a particular emphasis on growing our retail funds management business and creating a new ASX-listed office rate. We will continue our asset sale process, including the Poland retail portfolio, Italian Logistics portfolio, and our position in LDK as well as some additional non-core assets in Australia. Liquidity release from asset sales will be used to capitalize on fund management opportunities. The simplification of the Cromwell platform will guide our future priorities and unlock value for security holders. The markets will continue to be uncertain, which may impact transactional activity, but we do believe with in-house global capability throughout the real estate life cycle from research trends, ESG expertise, and asset management track record, it will put us in a good position to drive performance of the investment portfolio through tenant retention and continue to grow our funds under management operations. Given the uncertainty surrounding the timing of the asset sale program and the reinvestment of that capital, it is difficult to provide clear guidance on the earnings and distribution outlook for the business. Our distribution of $1.375 per security is expected to be paid for the September 2022 quarter. The Board will provide distribution guidance on a quarterly basis, guided by the progress of the asset sale program and market conditions. We will now offer the opportunity for questions, and I'll pass it back to our moderator to facilitate this. ================================================================================ Questions and Answers -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Operator [1] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Operator Instructions) Our first question today will come from Annabelle Atkins with JPMorgan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Annabelle Atkins, JPMorgan Chase & Co, Research Division - Analyst [2] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just a few questions on your debt (inaudible), Sorry, if I missed it. Just trying to look at your look-through gearing as of June 22. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brett Hinton, Cromwell Property Group - Head of Funds Management [3] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It would be Annabelle, I don't have it directly in some, but it would be in the mid-40% range, so around about that 45% range. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Annabelle Atkins, JPMorgan Chase & Co, Research Division - Analyst [4] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay. All right. And just post balance sheet as of today, what kind of gearing are we looking at from a balance sheet and a look-through perspective just given those redemptions in the convertible bond? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brett Hinton, Cromwell Property Group - Head of Funds Management [5] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes. So it'd be the same, Annabelle. It was simply refinance through existing lines. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Annabelle Atkins, JPMorgan Chase & Co, Research Division - Analyst [6] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay. And any plans to take up from hedging? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brett Hinton, Cromwell Property Group - Head of Funds Management [7] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, that's a clear focus of -- for the group going forward. We need to balance that with the asset sale program as well and just make sure that we get the right position between where we currently are and where we need to be in relation to that debt and the assets. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan P. Callaghan, Cromwell Property Group - CEO, MD & Director [8] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So in addition to that Annabelle, it's the asset sale program and also the proposed demerger will influence the hedging profile. At the moment, we're comfortable with where it is, but it's something that has received a little bit of attention in the coming year. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Annabelle Atkins, JPMorgan Chase & Co, Research Division - Analyst [9] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay. So there's no kind of guidance on where you'd like to get to on that just on a percentage basis? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan P. Callaghan, Cromwell Property Group - CEO, MD & Director [10] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I mean I think, no, at this point, we're comfortable with the hedging profile, where it comes out will depend upon a few factors. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Annabelle Atkins, JPMorgan Chase & Co, Research Division - Analyst [11] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes. Okay. And just looking at the Polish retail assets, just given the cash rate there and where inflation is running at? Just wanting to know what your outlook is on the valuation there? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan P. Callaghan, Cromwell Property Group - CEO, MD & Director [12] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The valuations are reasonably flat for FY '22 year. We're very skeptical or cautious about providing any outlook for the Polish environment at the moment. So the short answer is no, we can't really provide any outlook where that valuation might be at the end of the year. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Annabelle Atkins, JPMorgan Chase & Co, Research Division - Analyst [13] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay. And so your EPS guidance on a quarterly basis has fallen in that 1 last year. Just can you give us a bit more color on what the next 3 quarters could look at? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan P. Callaghan, Cromwell Property Group - CEO, MD & Director [14] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The distribution rate, sorry, is that what the question was? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Annabelle Atkins, JPMorgan Chase & Co, Research Division - Analyst [15] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, yes. correct. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan P. Callaghan, Cromwell Property Group - CEO, MD & Director [16] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes. I mean the short answer is no. We're just taking this at a quarter-by-quarter basis. There are a lot of moving pieces in our capital structure and in relation to how the operational activity of the market or transactional activity in the market holds up in the coming years. So the intention is to provide quarter-by-quarter guidance. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Operator [17] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Operator Instructions). Our next question will come from Alex Prineas with Morningstar. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alexander Prineas, Morningstar Inc., Research Division - Associate Director of Manager Research [18] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just a follow-up on the distribution. So you're targeting a payout ratio in future of 95% to 125% of AFFO, can you just run through what the indicators you'd be looking for that would push you to the upper or lower end of that payout ratio? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan P. Callaghan, Cromwell Property Group - CEO, MD & Director [19] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think it would be looking forward to the robustness of market conditions and our progress against various initiatives and how close we are to redeploying capital to the extent that we've repatriated capital. So it's a variety of factors. But I think it would just really depend upon the robustness of the outlook. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alexander Prineas, Morningstar Inc., Research Division - Associate Director of Manager Research [20] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So would it be fair to say that the reason it can go significantly above 100% of AFFO would be related to -- if you took a view that AFFO in a particular year was abnormally low, so you'd be willing to maintain distribution will pay above 100% for a period of time, but not indefinitely. Is that fair to say? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan P. Callaghan, Cromwell Property Group - CEO, MD & Director [21] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes. Yes. I mean AFFO, unfortunately, is a very -- it's a bit of a clumsy number because it is extremely volatile. And it depends a lot on your CapEx in a particular year. And that's certainly another factor we would take into consideration. So it would just depend. It would just depend on whether or not there was some large significant outlying style CapEx initiatives in that particular year, but it will also depend upon looking forward, how confident we are in the earnings of the group moving forward. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alexander Prineas, Morningstar Inc., Research Division - Associate Director of Manager Research [22] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay. And just in terms of the funds under management, there was, as you mentioned, stable or marginally up for the year. there were some -- you had that $800 million of mandate wins. So I was wondering what the offsets were to that. Was there some outflows elsewhere that offset that $800 million? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brett Hinton, Cromwell Property Group - Head of Funds Management [23] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The $800 million, Alex, at this point, is only $121 million of that is recognized as a bump. But there's $800 million of commitments. $200 million is advanced in terms of further acquisitions to deploy under that member, under those mandates. So that will have a positive impact. Some of the other influences are currently, the Australian dollar, you depreciate over that period of time. So that just has an impact and some revaluations so against the Polish portfolio. I guess the business there has positioned itself and as we built relationships that you can see through some of those mandates. I said that will get redeployed and net-net stable. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alexander Prineas, Morningstar Inc., Research Division - Associate Director of Manager Research [24] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just one final one. Can you offer some thoughts on the, I guess, just in terms of strategic rationale for in terms of the spin-off, you have flagged possibly raising equity as part of that. I was wondering how that -- how raising equity stacks up, given your share price is at a discount to the NTA versus selling assets presumably roundabout in line with NTA? How do you weigh those 2 alternative options are? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brett Hinton, Cromwell Property Group - Head of Funds Management [25] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, I mean carefully, obviously. I think partly, the most significant reason of why the market is not stacking up for project for is that very dynamic that you point to. So we are very conscious of the price at which you can raise capital relative to valuation you're carrying the assets at on your book. I think ultimately, we're only really interested in selling our noncore assets though, and that's the strategy at this point. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Operator [26] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Our next question will come from Fiona Buchanan with Morgans. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fiona Buchanan, Morgans Financial Limited, Research Division - Co-Head of Research & Senior Analyst [27] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just a couple on the asset sales. Just understand obviously the Polish challenges there. Just if there's further, I guess, on the Italian portfolio, if that's better position there for asset sale? And just anything in the Australian, obviously, you've done a bit in the last half with some asset sales. Just anything across that Aussie portfolio that potentially may be considered non-core, are you happy with where it's at? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan P. Callaghan, Cromwell Property Group - CEO, MD & Director [28] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, sure. Thanks, [Hakan]. Thanks for the question. In relation to the Italian assets, we have been trying to raise a fund using those assets as seed assets. Unfortunately, they're very good, and the yield is very low. Most of the appetite for fund-style products in Europe in the industrial space because of the low yields has really drifted into the core+/development space. So in that fund area, those assets no longer match that criteria. The assets themselves are very good though. We've appreciated in value since we've owned them. We've actually made a reasonable amount of money from owning them. And we have no real fear that they won't be snapped up in that market, that area, the logistics market more broadly and that Italian market, in particular, is quite strong in this space at the moment. So we're confident that demand will be high for those assets as we move to more of an asset sale strategy rather than a fund-style strategy. In relation to the Australian assets, yes, we do have some non-core assets still in the portfolio. They would be the regional assets that really don't fit with the more CBD-centric or core office area-centric strategy of the Australian or the AREIT what we're pursuing. So those regional assets are on balance sheet, we would looking to divest through the year perhaps. We, at the same time, though, not just pursuing asset style divestments in that, we are also exploring ways in which we can perhaps sell our interest down through fund or syndicate style arrangements. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fiona Buchanan, Morgans Financial Limited, Research Division - Co-Head of Research & Senior Analyst [29] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And sorry, I can I put in one more question. I just noticed was it just during this period that you bought a stake in the direct fund as well? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brett Hinton, Cromwell Property Group - Head of Funds Management [30] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, it was. It was -- we did it in at December. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fiona Buchanan, Morgans Financial Limited, Research Division - Co-Head of Research & Senior Analyst [31] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes. Okay. And is that likely to go up or probably... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan P. Callaghan, Cromwell Property Group - CEO, MD & Director [32] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It might go up. I think there's -- at this stage, we're comfortable where it is. We have no aversion to it going up. I think it really just reflects what we want to do moving forward is to use the balance sheet to create alignment between the manager and the funds, and this is one step in that direction. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Operator [33] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Operator Instructions). And there are no further questions at this time. I'd like to turn the conference back over to Mr. Callaghan for any closing remarks. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan P. Callaghan, Cromwell Property Group - CEO, MD & Director [34] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'd just like to thank everyone for joining us for our financial year 2022 results. We're pleased with those results. We're very focused on continuing to execute and deliver on the strategy that we've articulated to the market, and we hope to basically share some good news on progress on that front throughout the year. So thanks very much, everyone, and look forward to speaking to you all soon. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Operator [35] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And that does conclude our conference for today. Thank you for participating. You may now disconnect.